Pagan Stories

One of my books is going to be a thorough, factual based book on Wicca which is about as pagan as pagan gets hehe. Most of my stories tend to have some pagan influence, often very little though since they're steeped in fantasy.

My my MC's girlfriend is a Wicca. Does that count?

NaNoWriMo 2008: WINNER!
NaNoWriMo 2007: WINNER!
NaNoWriMo 2006:Miserable failure. We don't talk about it.

Greek gods and goddesses pop up in my work all the time and quite a few of my characters are modern-day pagans. I think that may qualify it, but mostly it's a mix between fantasy and horror.

This years nano is the first thing I'm doing that focuses exclusively on the gods, however.

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NaNo '08
Working Title: The Wars of Olympus
Genre: Fantasy
Word Count: TBA

I know some pagans who would strongly disagree with you on that. Might I suggest using the book Drawing Down the Moon as a reference source and avoiding anything written by Silver Ravenwolf?

Strongly disagree on what? And yes, I'm already aware of the garbage that is Silver Ravenwolf :)

wicca is not as pagany as pagans get I think is what they are saying, and I will agree entirely.

Wicca settles in the middle between judao christian practices and pagan recreationism.

Truthfully there isn no pagany as pagans get as the term essentially means the spiritually base religious practices of rural peoples from multiple cultures.

I have in the past included characters who are pagan in non obvious ways, such as having talismen or totems they use in moments of need (like those christians who might pick up a cross they wear at their neck and say a little prayer), or somebody relising that another character is unbalanced in their connection with a patron diety.

It's subtle, and not hocus pocusy, simply a story about a character with a faith they arn't crusading for.

How does Wicca fall between Pagan and Judao Christianity?

Pagan means rural or rustic. Some even think it translates to heathen. Heathen means not Christian or Jewish. So Paganism is basically outside Judaism and Christianity.

How does Wicca fall between the two? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from on this, not agrue. I'm just trying to understand why you feel this way.

Ken

ML - Maine: Portland to Augusta
Mod - Y/A & Religious Genre Forums
"Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." Heinlein

Actually, to be fair Wicca is a religion that was created in the 50s or so by Gerald Gardner based on some covens that he supposedly witnessed back in England. It's based around the wheel of the year; Samhain, Yule, Imbolc, Ostara, Beltane, Litha, Lughnasadh, Mabon and basically it recognizes a mother goddess and a father god. I suppose that one could call it pagan reconstruction since it is based off what we know of the ancient celtic peoples of the United Kingdom and what not...

...but I was wondering whether or not people were going to incorporate pagan elements into their novels this year like having deities from a greek or roman or another pantheon muck things up for the characters, or have one of the characters be a pagan themself who follows a non-organized non-monothestic path...

NANO 03: Light of Allayna (Lost)
NANO 04: On the Other Side of the Sun (Won)
NANO 05: Pen’s Dreamscape (Won)
NANO 06: Unwritten (Didn’t attempt)
NANO 07: Emerald Moon (Lost)
NANO 08: Phoenix Fire (0/50,000)

Actually, we know next to nothing about the ancient Celtic religions and almost all of it is second hand info that the Romans wrote down (one of the tragedies of not having a written language). And I heard from a few Celtic Recons that Wicca itself doesn't match up with what we do know.

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NaNo '08
Working Title: The Wars of Olympus
Genre: Fantasy
Word Count: TBA

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NaNo '08
Working Title: The Wars of Olympus
Genre: Fantasy
Word Count: TBA

From what I understand, Wicca was created by Gerald Gardner in the 1940s after the Witchcraft Ban was lifted in Britian. He was initiated into New Forest Coven, and what he wrote about comes from this coven. Well, all that can be publically revealed anyway. Traditional Wicca is considered a Mystery religion, in that in order to know everything about it you must be initiated into a lineaged coven. It's also thought that he drew inspiration and elements from other paths, as the Sabbats in Wicca are not new creations or original to it. Heathens (Asatru) and Celts today for example have their own way of celebrating these notable days. However Wicca has its own rituals usually performed on these days.

My understanding of the term paganism is that it encompasses the paths that do not fall under the Abrahamic religions. Some definitions of paganism include eastern religions like Buddhism and Taoism, and others don't. But paths like Wicca always seem to fall under paganism.

One of my characters is a foreign exchange student from Iceland who is an Asatruar - my religion. It's going to be hard to talk about the religion because the character plays only a small role in the story, but I think I'll be able to do it.

-Con-

Every Wiccan I have met have considered themselves also Pagans. That's why I do not understand someone saying they're not Pagan but something closer to Judeo Christian. Wiccans are nothing like Christians in their beliefs.

Ken

ML - Maine: Portland to Augusta
Mod - Y/A & Religious Genre Forums
"Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." Heinlein

The only similarities that Wicca has to Judeo Christian is that it is more of a 'religion' with dogma and structure than other paths. But yes, most Wiccans consider themselves to be under the Pagan umbrella. I guess it's all a matter of semantics?

alright relax here, don't get all upset.

There is a spectrum of faiths that I am looking at that can be seen as a smear from one side of the spectrum we get things like Shamanism and as we move toward the other side we cross over things like pre buddhist shinto practices, then you get Greco-roman (celtic and norse and such as well) traditions (that actually invented the term pagan to describe the superstitious nature based 'paganism' rather then civilised metropolitan religion) and then you move into the Kabbalic mysticisms before hitting the everyday judeo christian practices.

What you have to understand is that almost all of the practices in wicca are things borrowed from the so called High magics which were mostly set down by occultists like Crowley and organisations like The Golden dawn, who based huge amounts of their practices on Kabbalah (jewish mistic practises) mixed with rumors of the practices of the witches caught and killed during the witch hunts (most of whom were christians practicing folk superstitions, and simply gave the inquisitors what they wanted to hear, for obvious reasons). Even many reconstructionist paths include some of this 'high' magic foundation to fill in the gaps in practices.

Coming from an eccletic path myself I'd tend more toward something near shamanic and reconstructioist practices with a good deal of intrest in shinto. I'm not wicca and I have little if anything to do with the High ceremonial magics that came from the golden dawn and crowleis followers. There is nothing wrong with them, anymore then there is anything wrong with christianity, but from where I stand wicca is farther toward that side then any reconstructionist anamistic, shamanism or other area out this side of the spectrum. Pagan as a term applied to rural superstition and nature based practices does include wicca to some degree, but wicca tend to be on the deviding line. It's high ceremonial magic system tend to set it closer to the christian, while it's herbalism and naturebased aspects bring it into the pagan paths. Golden Dawn is (in my oppinion) decidedly not pagan, but occult and Kabbalistic.

hope that shows that the term pagan itself is an outdated and many facetted term. Just as the word celtic is often used to portray a single people wh were infact not single. (Celts live in france and spain and germany, they had differant gods and goddesses in differant regions and some did in fact have a writting system that can still be found on some stone and pottery but it's meaning has been lost and there is not enough from any one group to make a seroious determination of any of it.)

Ba-humbug. We lost some of this thread, and the debate was getting good.

But getting back on topic--I remember one person last year posting the idea of following one pagan's journey as they got the tools of their trade. The catch was that each tool had to 'come to the person' and each item had a lesson or challenge associated with it. An interesting concept to say the least--is anyone doing something like this?

NANO 03: Light of Allayna (Lost)
NANO 04: On the Other Side of the Sun (Won)
NANO 05: Pen’s Dreamscape (Won)
NANO 06: Unwritten (Didn’t attempt)
NANO 07: Emerald Moon (Lost)
NANO 08: Phoenix Fire (0/50,000)

No kidding. This server loss throws me off :)

I like that premise. I remember asking some friends on another board about runes in particular, but the popular opinion was that your tools should be something that fits you, usually something made by you if it's possible (i.e. making a wand instead of buying one, using a shell you found at the beach to hold incense, etc.)

Just my two cents, I think rovingjack does a good job of summing up the confusion and the differences among magical paths.

Kabbalistic practices can be used by any Jew, Pagan, Christian, or any other person wishing to tap into and train their magical side (I myself have done some work from Bardon's Hermetics book), but practices such as these are not necessarily ancient Celtic Pagan in origin. Another example is meditation – most NeoPagan paths I've run into emphasize meditation to some degree, but the practice originated with Hinduism.

As for my story, I've labeled it as a mystery, but my MC will be a modern Pagan trying to uncover the secret of who her mother's real father is. I plan to have the MC connect with the spirit of her grandmother (who withheld the father's name for 30-some years before dying with the secret) at a Samhain ritual. So there are Pagan elements in my story, though I'm not considering it a religious/spiritual story.

It is a farily standard practice...though buying things work just as well too in my opinion. ^_^

Not a religious/spiritual story but it has spiritual elements in it which will give it a deeper meaning. ^_^

Nano 03: Light of Allayna (8k) [GAVE UP]
Nano 04: On The Other Side of the Sun (51,194k) [WINNER]
Nano 05: Pen's Dreamscape (53,601k) [WINNER}
Nano 07: Emerald Moon (14,610k) [UNIVERSITY GOT IN THE WAY]
Nano 08: ????????

NANO 03: Light of Allayna (Lost)
NANO 04: On the Other Side of the Sun (Won)
NANO 05: Pen’s Dreamscape (Won)
NANO 06: Unwritten (Didn’t attempt)
NANO 07: Emerald Moon (Lost)
NANO 08: Phoenix Fire (0/50,000)

I'm not actually (as far as I know) using any pagan/wicca/whatever elements in my story other than what seeps in.

Being a witch (not wicca), my worldview necessarily colors the world of my characters. This generally means a total lack of christian anything anywhere, ideas of karma, reincarnation, and other little things like that.

And yes, Gardner did steal a lot from Crowley, but there actually isn't very much ceremonial magic in modern wicca. Check out Progressive Witchcraft by Gavin Bone and Janet Farrar. I think it really services a need the wicca community has for lack of substance... But anyway.

Every book I've ever read about the topic gives a different "history" of wicca and modern day paganism, so I tend to go with the idea that witchcraft has survived over the centuries in folk beliefs, superstitions, and hereditary traditions, but that it was organized and popularized in the mid twentieth century by various authors and practitioners. More importantly though, I don't think it matters, because whatever works for you, works for you, and who cares where it came from?

Pagan comes from the Latin, Paganus, which meant country dweller. In ancient Greece and Rome, life in the country was held to different standards then that of the big cities, even though everyone worshipped the same gods, the ways differed by where you lived.

When christians used it ages ago it was to show that a pagan believed in the old ways and was different then they were, though christianity had to incoperate pagan beliefs and build on pagan sites to get worshippers.

As for my story? There is a mix of Pagan and Wiccan in it. There is a hidden coven of witches who are all members of an well known gymnastics club, and the coven is led by one of the coaches. There is also a haunted plantation house and a ghostly romance.

**Old Nick Name: KaliAngelKat**

**Old Nick Name: KaliAngelKa

2006 NaNo: One Shining Moment: Beginings
2007 NaNo: Karia
2008 Nano: Blue Star Secrets**

True, but I love researching and seeing how things began, faiths and paths included. I love seeing where they came from :)

My novel this year is the story of a journalism student getting caught up in the occult underground of a small town in Maine. My MC isn't pagan, but almost every other character is. I have a Dianist coven, a clan of eclectics, an all-male lodge, a family of alchemists, a vampiric boarding house, and a gallery run by auric photographers. I hope that's enough to keep me and my MC going until the 30th, not to mention Gio, the witch-king himself, who lives in a storage pod in the woods with his dog, Cinncinnata.

Wow, I'm so glad I decided to respond to this thread because now I know what to put in under synopsis in the novel info section of my profile! :D

~Edie

Yeah I'm not opposed to buying stuff; I just plan to cleanse it before I use it. And unless I or someone I know learns how to make athames in some respects you don't really have a choice but to buy some tools lol

This is the problem , these aspects are so ubiquitous that you probably don't know you are using them. If you have cast a circle, used an athame boline or wand, or called the quarters you are using ceremonial magics taken from groups like the golden dawn. The structure of most rituals and the ideas behind such tools as the staves, blades, cups and such are all based on these early groups mixing ceremonial magics from egyptian occult practices and mythology with kabbalah, and if you use concepts such as elementals and their traits that comes from christian occultists and alchemists.

Spiral dances and sage smudging, drum circles and such are from the outside of these influances but they are merging more and more these days. But If you do any magic or ritual don't deceive yourself you are useing things set down by christian and jeudeo christian mystics which were borrowed by people like gardner and crowley when they took them from the practices of the golden dawn who took them from the masons and the rosey cross croud.

Just as Christainity has much of it's current practice based on pagan practices, much of neopagan practices derive from christian occultism. To try to pull away from anything to do with christianity is not only impossable but really unfair to your path and to christianity itself.

respecting these roots and allowing all things to be possable is the approach I like to take. I have a freind who is a hard core baptist and I can talk of the devine with him and we have truely deep conversations on the topic without any any indication that we are coming from differant foundations. He recently found out he may have lupus and I can talk him through some self healing practices as prayer and baptismal practices just as easily as if my sister had asked and needed shamanic journeis based in american indian practices or another freind wanted pagan or buddhist practices.

I'm just curious where this info comes from, that the roots lie in christian and judeo mystic practices. I've never seen this link and love to read about it :)

I'm really trying to not be argumentative as this is not the place and I need to set a good example as a mod, but I have to comment on the Christianity influences. So please don't take this as me arguing, just expressing my ideas.

I can't disagree that But the thing is that much of the Christian stuff came from when they adopted old Pagan customs in attempt to convert them to Christianity. So in a lot of ways they do intermingle, but I can't agree that it's all coming from Christianity. Some of it has been filtered through the Christian church, but is really old Pagan ways.

Ken

ML - Maine: Portland to Augusta
Mod - Y/A & Religious Genre Forums
"Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." Heinlein

I didn't use the "quote" button this time, but I will from now on. I'm responding to:

"But getting back on topic--I remember one person last year posting the idea of following one pagan's journey as they got the tools of their trade. The catch was that each tool had to 'come to the person' and each item had a lesson or challenge associated with it. An interesting concept to say the least--is anyone doing something like this?"
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I'm not writing about it, but I am living it. Interesting how that works - you get curious about this or that aspect of the whole pagan lifestyle and variations thereof, and bam! the research info and the individual items or tools just fall into your hands like apples off the tree.

Ohhhh, a researcher after my own heart! You sound like you've been reading my mind. May I add you to my buddy list?

Feel free to! :)

Who said 'all' anything. My point is simply that one would be incorrect in saying that wicca was as pagany as pagans get. when in fact the shamanic practices (being founded and used by so called primative barbarian tribes) are more suited to the term Pagan then something that shares much of it's foundations with kabbalic and christian mystic traditions that formed the core of much of golden dawns practices through masionic and rosicruxian influances.

And if memory serves me I also stated that christianity had take in some aspects of the pagan ways.

Seriously my point is trying to stay close to the topic originally proposed. The idea that the characters in a persons story could be anyreligion and nobody would be able to destinguish it from any other if you are within the more commonly known traditions. They can be seen to share much with one another.

You'd be hard pressed to mistake a sun dance for anything christian but there are some christian practices that a pagan would recognise and vis versa.