Was Jesus a real person or a metaphor? Was he crucified? If so..

Lots of people have written about it - the classic is Let's Go to Golgotha from 1975. The link has spoilers, so find the original short story if you can! I read it when I was about 9 or 10 and it really spooked me.

Godless by Dan Barker covers the subject in some depth, with a bibliography for further research. His conclusion is that there wasn't a real man called Jesus who was the alleged Messiah, despite what Christian apologists would like you to believe. There just isn't any evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

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"Writing is easy. All you do is stare at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead."

This would be a topic to approach with extreme caution, because there are a lot of personal opinions and more importantly, beliefs involved. I believe that Jesus was a real person, that he was fully God and fully man, and that he was crucified on the cross and rose from the dead after three days. No metaphors, only truth. Not all people believe that, though, and though I will tell you what I believe, I will not try to force you to believe as I do. Just be aware going into it that you are inevitably going to tick off some people.

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The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everyone else.

- Umberto Eco

Jesus is a perfectly safe subject to write about.

Just don't say anything bad about Mohammed. ;P

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Title: Breaking Light
Goal: Finishing this novel. (Probably be 100k-120k at this rate.)
Sanity level: Do you even need to ask?

If someone could answer that question definitively, it'd be a pretty big deal. Any fictional (or should I say, non-canonical) account of a religious figure is going to be controversial, whether its "The Passion of the Christ" or "The Last Temptation of Christ" or even "The Master and Margarita". But that shouldn't stop you from writing about it.

There's also the possibility that Jesus was a real person, or an amalgam of many real people, who said more or less the things he said but wasn't any sort of incarnate deity.

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"A bibliophile of little means is likely to suffer often. Books don't slip from his hands but fly past him through the air, high as birds, high as prices." --Pablo Neruda

There are two topics that are always potential powder kegs. Religion and politics. Of the two I'd say religion is the more explosive. A person may change their political beliefs with little or no upset, but challenge their religious beliefs and you're asking for trouble. It comes down to a matter of faith. You can see the local politician but you can't just see God. You have to take it on faith that he exists. Belief is very powerful. If someone believes in something they will do anything they have to (sometimes beyond reason) to defend that belief. Even if it requires violent action be taken. It's very sad really.

There are historical references, so the question of his being a 'real person' isn't really open to debate anymore, I'd thought. Do some research. And yes, he was crucified.

People do historical fiction all the time. I can't really imagine *why* anyone would want to go back and wipe out Jesus, unless perhaps as a bizarre Christian fiction on what the world would look like if such an attempt had succeeded ... but then, if you're doing Christian fiction, you'd be going under the premise that God would've intervened.

Handle it tactfully, or if not tactfully, label it as the parody or whatever it actually is, and you should be fine. I personally wouldn't enjoy such a book, but there are a lot of folks who would, I'd think. There are historical fiction type books with religious figures that aren't religious fiction. (When I say religious fiction, I mean fiction involving religious elements by people actually subscribing to those beliefs, rather than writers using the elements and trying to disprove the beliefs. Which may be an erroneous definition?)

If you want to write it, give it a shot and see where it takes you. Then you can decide its readability or publishability later.

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Proud Member of the Trebuchet Club!

According to our best evidence, Jesus lived and died under the Romans in first century Judaea. I could recite the Apostle's Creed here, but I won't.
We have a great deal more evidence for Jesus than for King Arthur, and there isn't much question that a King Arthur did exist in Britain in the Dark Ages. (Merlin and Morgan la Faye, probably not.)
As for tinkering with the historicity of Jesus, it's been done and it continues to be done. In fact, the Christmas pageant at our church this year hinges on the supposition: "What if Jesus were born not under Caesar Augustus, but in this day and age? What would be the same? What would be different?"
I'm using this question as a take off point for my next story. It will be interesting untangling all the various historical currents into "this was affected by the coming of Christ, that wasn't."
Some Christians will be offended by the publication of a work that tinkers with the biblical canon, others won't. Those who are offended will ban the book from their church and school libraries. What they will not do is put a price on the author's head, as the Ayatollah Chomeini did to Salman Rushdie for publishing the Satanic Verses. And even so... the Ayatollah is dead, and Rushdie is still writing.

Thanks to all of you - as soon as I pressed 'send' I wondered if I should have explained more. Also wondered if I might stir up a hornet's nest! But no and what a relief.

Yes Rushdie is still going but if he did the same to the Al Q boys now (Danish Cartoons last year?) ??

I have a theme where a man of power checks and monitors history -from an isosceles viewpoint if you like. The theme being that there could be several outcomes at many many Y forks in the road steered back on course by my man.

No Kristen S - I don't want to go back and wipe him out - Pilate and co managed that. (metaphorically?)

My man would be there at the attempted assassination of Hitler to stop it going ahead - in our time line that is. I have the bones of the story on a peer review site and one enthusiastic reviewer suggested I try the crucifixion. Interesting research, and I will ask about a day in Judea, but does that change any of these well phrased opinions here? What if Jesus was saved? Presumably my man would not allow it. Damn - it's only a story - didn't want to get metaphysical or owt!

I'm confused. So your guy would be going around in time, trying to *stop* people tampering with it? I'd think that would be a fascinating story, actually. You could, in fact, get a really good religious story out of it ... someone well-meaning but misguided person wants to prevent the Crucifixion, and your guy has to stop him ... has to let Jesus die so that all the other good things can happen. Talk about conflict! Because then your character would also essentially be condemning Jesus to death, anticipating the resurrection. But even knowing the end, the waiting would be just about as hard on your character as it was on the original disciples.

As for the Hitler thing ... I'm not as up on the Hitler timeline ... was there a failed assassination attempt on him? And your character would be trying to stop it? Why? To preserve the timeline, or because he's a Hitler fan? Those would be two very different stories, and I got confused as to which you meant. Either could be a fascinating read, I guess. (The thought of Hitler being rescued to continue his atrocities would be a pretty dark story indeed, is that what you meant to write?)

Anyway, good luck with your story!

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Proud Member of the Trebuchet Club!

I worry when I confuse people - does it mean I am confused myself and transmit it.

You have my gist first time round and yes - what a dilemma. I could point you to a first draft in un edited short story form if you like.

Hitler? Assassination? Yes, one famous one at least - suggest Google as I wouldn't want to bore you here. So yes, if you Kristen S

(doin myeddin - I have a character called Kristen elsewhere - get back in the book!)

er, yes if my man doesn't keep history in line, (he is no fan believe me) then your parents may not have met etc - need I go on? So yes dark responsibilites. You'd like his shenanigans at Stonehenge and the elephant influence at Carthage though.
(don't ask - Google)

What if Jesus had not been executed under Pontius Pilate?
Theologians have asked that question and concluded that this would not have influenced the Redemption. If He had lived to the ripe old age of eighty and died in His sleep, or if He had been killed as an infant under Herod, He would still have risen from the dead and thrown down the gates of Hell. Theoretically.
It's fun to speculate. If He had not been killed at the age of thirty three, but lived to be a venerable sage...
If He had been killed by Herod's minions, and come back to life as "the Boy Who Lived"...
Orthodox teaching maintains that God's will cannot be thwarted by something as insignificant as one person's free will.
Of course, as Aslan says to Lucy in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader "My child, we are not told what would have been."

When last I was in a history class that covered the period, there was no compelling evidence that Jesus ever lived, and certainly none about his divine status. There is, however, quite a lot of "negative evidence." I'd put him very definitely in the Not Proven category.

(If anything, more recent archeology would seem to make his existence even less likely, as every bit of corroborative material has turned out to be faked. James ossuary, anyone?)

How do you explain the tomb of St. Paul in Rome then if Jesus didn't exist? For there to be a deciple there 1st has to be a teacher who instructed him. Granted history and fiction have probably become mixed over the last 2,000 yrs. Jesus probably was born in a relative's home rather than in an actual stable for example. Back then permanent homes in that part of the world were 2 story (as I understand it) with the animals being on the ground floor and the family living above them. We owe the modern nativity scene to St. Francis who was the 1st person to construct one (over 1000 yrs after the fact). Also by the time the wise men found him he was likely about 6 months old rather than a newborn. I mean they saw an alignment of stars and planets (they were learned in astrology) which is the basis of the star which foretold his birth and followed it to bethlehem. Considering that all they had for land travel were foot, horses, donkey or camels a journey would take quite a long time compared to today. Even just a few 100 yrs ago if you traveled 10 miles in a day you were making good time. Science has verified that such a conjunction of planets did take place back then by the way. They used astronomy programs to picture the night sky at that time. Anyway Jesus wasn't Jesus as far as his name in his native tongue. It was more akin to Joshua. Jesus is just the Greek translation for his name. Just as Christ comes from the world "Cristos" which means "the anointed one" in Greek.

Unless you're suicidal.

I'm not really sure why this question is being asked. I believe Jesus was a real person, but can you write that he wasn't? Sure. Can you right that he was some hallucination invented by Constantine in early A.D. times? If you want. Of course, ANYTHING you write about Jesus or the Bible even is going to be contriversial to someone.

Did I even answer the question?

From all that I have read, I have formed the opinion that Jesus probably existed, even though there is no final evidence. But most of the things that have been written about him are probably not correct. E.g. many biographical anecdotes and stories about him are borrowed from other mythical figures like Osiris and Inanna etc. Also the things written about him was written many years after his death so I don´t think the quotes are very accurate.

Um. Since Paul never even met Jesus, I don't think that even if "St. Paul's" tomb contains an actual Paul, that it can be taken to prove much.

Also note that there's no agreement among scientists as to which astronomical/astrological event might have convinced a group of Persian astrologers that an event of interest was about to occur, if indeed the whole Magi story can be believed.

(Travel really wasn't that difficult then, btw. Look at info on trade routes and at the Roman roads.)

If you're squeamish about writing on a sensitive topic, read "Ghost" by John Ringo. I am SO glad I read this. It broadened my mind. It taught me that you can write about ANYTHING. And I mean ANYTHING.

Did I mention ANYTHING?

Well, think about it... there's a direct relationship between the existence of Jesus and of Islam.

...Huh??? Not sure where you got this, but it's complete BS.

That would be the subject of the Last Temptation of Christ. I always kinda liked that work: the notion that Jesus was not tempted by power or money, etc., but by the chance to have a normal life and family.

Actually I believe that it does say they did meet (after the crucifixion) but even if you discount that there is still the fact that Paul learned at least some of Jesus' teachings from some of the deciples. Remember he persecuted the followers shortly after the crucifiction so he did meet them. I did get Peter and Paul mixed up a bit though. Anyway the Christian religion didn't just spring up on its own. Someone had to start it so someone had to exist to do so. Nature may create hydrogen out of nothing (astronomy) but ideas have to have a starting point. And though the Romans did have roads even they didn't pave everywhere. How can you pave the desert for example. Trade routes back then were established along the most easily accessible routes from point a to point b. Everyone man or beast had to have water in the desert after all so you would try to keep to certain known areas so that you had enough water to make it from one place to another. Remember even the Romans sailed along the shorelines back then since they didn't have much in the way of navigational aids. If you got out of sight of land back then you could very well become hopelessly lost and the same could probably be said for the trade routes back then. They weren't chosen arbitrarily. And remember there was no road map that a person could consult back then either. Just the guide that you hired who had been there before at some point. While some things haven't changed much since then many others have. We take it for granted that we can go 45-50 miles in an hour's time but for them it would have been several days travel.

So...Paul heard some stories from someone. Ever play Telephone as a kid?

Following your logic, it would seem that *all* religions must be fact-based, eh?

(Again--I suggest you ACTUALLY INVESTIGATE the state of travel in the Eastern Empire. Not that it's terribly relevant, since the status of the Magi isn't really an issue here.)

I didn't think I'd get a ' Yes he was real - of course he was - read so and so chapter 48' but I have more answers now than my question requested. This is good because you have provided me with oodles of ideas which may appeal to readers. Readers hungry for informed background they don't have to Google or - perish the thought - go to a library and find out.

I replied here earlier to Kristen S that I am writing a story where a 'man of power and influence' is in charge of keeping history straight. It is light weight enough but I always think our schools do a poor job with history and it is years later we regain curiosity and agonise that such an interesting and varied topic was treated so indifferently.

So to the crucifixion. A hornet's nest? Or a bag of worms? To be a time traveller with the ability, and knowledge of the consequences of your actions, to change or adjust history. Responsible, so that we, we who live today, do not disappear or appear in another street, life, marriage, occupation etc. I used the old 'go back in time and kill Hitler' example. My man would not, even if he could or wanted to. So if I send him back and 'save' - should I say 'rescue' Jesus - or his metaphor, I think I must have his time machine break down or have him arrested by the Romans and let the deed go ahead. I'd like to hear your comments on that one because you've already added depth with trade routes, astral alignments etc so far. Marvellous stuff and thanks.

No; you just went off without reading the rest of the comments

I'm not sure anyone can answer this but you. How do you want to write it? What perspective are you coming from?

I mean, if you're writing from the perspective that Jesus really was who he said he was, then you're also coming from the perspective that God would probably intervene in your character's intervention, and events would go on as recorded. Which could be an awesome story.

If you're coming from the perspective that he wasn't who he said he was, then you'd need a good reason why your character would bother with an intervention in the first place. Does your character believe that there were more good teachings to come, and our world sure could use 'em? That would be an interesting story. Whether he succeeded or not, it would be interesting.

Obviously, if your character is intervening, you have to go with the assumption that Jesus actually existed, or your whole story is moot. :-)

If your character is, perhaps, an avowed atheist who wants to prevent the whole Crucifixion so that he won't have to listen to Bible-thumpers for the rest of his life, that could also be an interesting story. And you could go both ways ... he gets his wish, or he gets proven wrong... there'd be a readership for both possibilities.

If your character somehow does prevent said incident ... you're going to have to do a LOT of figuring on what our world would look like today. And no matter what you come up with, somebody will nitpick at it. If you're good with that, then go for it. If not, then you probably wouldn't want to write this story, or at least not share it.

However you write the story, you would probably still make your Jesus a sympathetic character... there aren't too many folks who would want to read about him being manipulative or mean or anything like that ... there's not a whole lot you could use to draw him as a character that way. And if you make him a sympathetic character (whether divine or only human), most of your readers will probably go along with the rest.

But really, no one can answer the "Is it too sensitive" question until you write it, and someone reads it. There are just so many different ways the story could go down.

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Proud Member of the Trebuchet Club!

Interesting possibilities there. My guess (assuming he existed and was a fairly typical Jewish prophet or reformer): saving him would have made it extremely unlikely that "Christianity" would have emerged. He was in process of creating a not-terribly-popular Jewish sect, and without Paul's radical changes I doubt that its appeal would have been nearly so widespread. Also, of course, they had the cool martyr thing going. I'm reminded a little of the JFK mythology--the guy died before his screw-ups could come home to roost, and I doubt that he'd be nearly so revered had he lived.

Yes. Romans 10:9. Since Jesus is a real and living Person you can ask Him! Ask Him to live in your heart and He will reveal to you that he was in fact crucified and He is Risen

Doesn't exactly meet the standard for historical verification, though, does it?

~~My little voices have warned me about your little voices...~~

Thank you - all better close it - I sense a gathering of the pious in the offing

I think I had better get on with my main effort for now - but for the curious - I think I would have some good copy if i visit the area - similar to Ben Hur - Where the crucifixion was a side issue to the story - a hint at the times and a surprise twist. There may be even other things a manipulator may need to attend to. Book 3 - or 4 I think.

Last time I looked up a history book the idea was that Jesus as portrayed by the Bible is more likely an amalgam of three different 'prophets', so yes he is most likely just a metaphor.

Just ask the Jews, they still wait for his arrival.

I think this topic has served its purpose. Please may I remind all here that the NaNoWriMo forums are not an appropriate place for religious debates or proselytizing, and that if you have a problem with something someone is posting, please click "report" under the post, and let the moderators handle it.

Thank you.

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Heather Dudley
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